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Post by trumellotonium on Nov 11, 2007 1:16:12 GMT -5
eek! clef, my friend, not cleft. Alto clef is an example of a C clef (if you do a google images search you'll probably be able to "C" what I'm talking about... ok, that was bad.), which is shaped vaguely like a 3. The line that splits the two curves is C. In alto clef, I believe, the middle line of the staff becomes C. Alto clef is most commonly used on the viola, very rare for any band instrument to see. Some band instruments (I think my trombones and bassoon saw it last year) do so tenor clef, which is also a C clef but C is the second-to-top line. For reference, what we usually call Treble clef is a G clef (it wraps around G), and what we frequently refer to as Bass clef is an F clef (F splits the dots). These clefs could theoretically be placed anywhere on the staff, but are rarely anywhere but their common Treble and Bass places. Edit: I found this website that gives a good illustration of the relation of the clefs. www.musicarrangers.com/star-theory/p02.htm
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Post by Scott Benson II on Nov 11, 2007 20:52:52 GMT -5
^ Very rarely...nowadays.
All the clefs we know today (the F, G, and C clefs you mentioned) started as movable clefs. Not just in theory could they be moved - they were. The reason is that using them could effectively eliminate the need for ledger lines, which were quite difficult for the music printers to handle. That's the same reason some instruments use them today: for example, the upper range of the cello often is written in tenor clef to save ledger lines.
Violas aren't the only ones who need alto clef, though! The first trombonist in orchestras will often encounter the alto clef in older printings of pieces. This goes back to the days when the three trombones in the section were one each of alto, tenor, and bass instruments. They read in their respective clefs. Now, however, the tenor trombone is the common instrument, but still must read in alto clef.
The most common usage of the movable clefs, though, was vocal music. In fact, each voice part had its own clef. The soprano clef was a C clef on the bottom line, giving a non-ledger-line range of B below middle C to the E two above middle C -- about the range commonly used at the time. The alto, tenor, and bass clefs all appear as we know them today. Only as printing improved did the two clefs that dominate today take prominence.
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KUguardgrl13
Band Nerd
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Post by KUguardgrl13 on Nov 14, 2007 17:00:10 GMT -5
^nice explanation
the reason the viola still reads alto clef is because of ledger lines. because of where middle C is located in treble clef would make it so that there would be a lot of ledger lines because a viola's lowest note and string is the C below middle C. for same reason we read treble clef for long passages of high notes. cellos read in tenor clef for the same reason. however, tenor clef is even more rare than alto. however, once you know one the other is pretty easy to figure out since they are so similar.
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Post by oboehorn77 on Nov 20, 2007 23:47:15 GMT -5
Just to be random, heheh, we're talking about instrument transpositions in theory class right now and we had to copy some parts into a score. It made me happy. (theory often does ) *end randomness*
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Post by heepwah2you04 on Oct 4, 2008 16:00:36 GMT -5
I borrowed my friend's Rent book for vocal/piano/guitar. I would like to be able to transpose this into Bb for my clarinet. I understand if it says "D" i play "e" correct? Would it be easyer to write it into finale notepad then transpose it to Bb on there or do it by hand on printed out staff paper?
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Post by altoclarinets on Oct 4, 2008 19:42:41 GMT -5
^It's easier to do it in finale but it will make you a better musician to learn how to sight transpose. I am slowly but surely geting there. An easy way is to take the note, lets say its C, and analyze like this: OK: The key of C has no sharps or flats. To go up a step, we add 2 sharps or subtract 2 flats, so the note C concert becomes D for you. By the same token, Eb becomes F, F becomes G, Bb becomes C and so on and so forth.
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Post by altoclarinets on Oct 4, 2008 19:45:20 GMT -5
Oh btw I invented a clef that designates this note: --O-- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- --------------------------------- -G------------------------------ --------------------------------- to make it easier to read piccolo and sopranino parts. It looks like this: || ||@ || I call it movable a clef.
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Post by heepwah2you04 on Oct 4, 2008 23:52:58 GMT -5
Thanks alto clarinet:)+
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carlaxbassoon
Band Geek
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Post by carlaxbassoon on May 10, 2009 17:26:22 GMT -5
bassoon is in C.... I think, since has the B flat Major scale is the same in flute.
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carlaxbassoon
Band Geek
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Post by carlaxbassoon on May 10, 2009 17:30:16 GMT -5
bassoon is in C.... I think, since has the B flat Major scale is the same in flute.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2009 17:38:48 GMT -5
^Flute is in C. Trombones and baritones play in Bb and read in C...that is, our C is a concert C and the key of C has no sharps or flats for us. I also know that a baritone in treble clef reads the same as a trumpet (probably intentionally), and that a concert C for them is D and a concert Bb is C. What I don't understand is how or why a Bb trombone reads in C.
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Post by altoclarinets on May 11, 2009 19:10:19 GMT -5
Going back to the whole Db piccolo thing... The explanation to this is really the same explanation as that for any other instrument. Have you ever heard of a series of Bach preludes and fugues called Das Wohltemperirte Klavier? Wohltempierirte or "well- tempered" means that the instrument has been tuned so that it plays reasonably in tune in all keys. Why is this necessary? You may have been told in a band class that Bb and A# were the same note. Well... kinda. Bb is actually minutely flatter than A#. And this applies to all so-called "enharmonics". Modern musicians play in such a way that they temper their own tuning ("lip it up") to match the scale they are using, but back when the key system was being put into place, instruments were designed and built in such a way that this was not possible- Keys were made of felt and leaky, and valve brass hadn't been invented. The more keys you had on a woodwind... the more of a pain in the neck to keep in shape. Therefore, for sharp or flat notes, instrumentalisf had to use badly tuned "fork" fingerings. Players would have one horn (i. e. A clarinet- adds 3b) that was tuned so the forks would be flat, and another (Bb clarinet- adds 2 sharps) that would have forks tuned sharp. They might also have several other instruments that played in C, D, Eb, F, G, and Ab. As the years went by and technology improved this no longer became a necessary practice... however, most literature up to that point had been written for a certain tuning of the instrument, therefore that was what stayed around and is what we use today. And that's my lesson for today. ;D
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bandman001
Band Geek
Real Trombonists play Bass, Crazy Trombonists play Alto!
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Post by bandman001 on May 11, 2009 20:48:21 GMT -5
I've also wondered about trombones being in Bb but reading in "C". I think it has to do with the harmonic series of the instrument and the way certain notes fall for certain fingerings. Atleast this is my understanding (which is probably wrong).
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Post by trumellotonium on May 13, 2009 21:47:09 GMT -5
The question over the difference between at treble baritone and a bass baritone (as far as what clef they're reading related to what key they claim to be in) goes as follows:
Baritone T.C. thinks it plays in Bb. Baritone B.C. thinks it plays in C.
Both are physically the same horn. The only difference is what the player calls the notes, and thus what notes are written for them. The T.C. calls the low open partial a C, but knows that it is concert Bb. The B.C. calls it a Bb, and it. The same applies to the trumpet, for the record, as to the T.C. The low open partial on a trumpet is a concert Bb, but we call it a C. This is most likely for for reasons of ledger lines, similar to the clefs mentioned before. By calling it a C we get to go a little higher with fewer ledger lines.
Hope that helps...
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bandman001
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Real Trombonists play Bass, Crazy Trombonists play Alto!
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Post by bandman001 on May 14, 2009 14:56:10 GMT -5
I guess i was asking, why do the bass clef instruments read in 'C' even if the instrument itself is said to be in 'Bb' or 'F'? But the above is also helpful.
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